Q: What exactly is ‘pig wrestling’ and how do I know I’m doing it?

Mark: The first thing to say is that ‘pig wrestling’ is something you’re trying to avoid rather than what you’re trying to do. It’s when you get stuck with a problem, and no matter what you do, it just won’t go away. You feel like you’ve tried everything and you’re at your wits end. Luckily, the more stuck you are, the easier it will be to help yourself out of it. It may have been playing in the back of your mind for a long time, but you really haven’t sat down to tackle it. People are brilliant problem solvers. We solve problems all the time, every day. So it’s interesting when we get stuck. This helps you to step away from it, consider viewing through a different frame. Then suddenly, a host of possibilities open up again.

Pete: When you’re struggling to create the change that you need in your life, the problem will feel massive and it will take up a lot of emotional space. You’ll be thinking about it all the time. You may be having imaginary conversations with people that you have to deal with to decide what you will say. We all approach our problems differently, and if we can tolerate, accept and value our differences, we’re more likely to unlock change. When we are unable to do this we become quite fixed in our view of the world. People then start wrestling with very messy problems, because they’re poorly defined. And ill-defined problems drive terribly designed solutions.  We created the pig wrestling method as a series of thought experiments to help you get out of that space and view the world another way.


Why choose the term ‘pig wrestling’?

Mark: It might seem like a bizarre concept at first. As psychologists we do a lot of talks on problem solving and what to do when you find yourself stuck. But the clinical nature of these talks causes them to not be particularly sticky. During a coffee break at one of our talks someone came up to us and said it had reminded them of a George Bernard Shaw quote, ‘I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it’. Everyone laughed, because that’s exactly how it feels. We thought it would be a great metaphor to capture what we’re trying to describe.

Pete: It’s a simple metaphor that everyone seems to intuitively connect with. It’s that feeling of being overwhelmed by a problem and being unable to get a handle on it, no matter what you try.

Why did you choose a fable to explain this concept?

Pete: We’ve read a lot of business and psychology books, and one of the things we loved about fables is that they’re so accessible. They take a complex message and, relatively indirectly, convey it to the reader. The reader is engaged with the story, but under the surface they are learning something quite powerful. Human beings are natural storytellers, so we wanted to craft something that would be easy to absorb without the complexity being obvious.

Mark: There is a danger to writing fables though. You’re constantly treading the line between complex concepts and simple terms, and that’s quite hard to do. We wanted it to be an accessible, engaging story. It’s a complex message to get across and you want to simplify it rather than making it simplistic. But if it’s a story, people get curious and it stimulates the imagination. You put down your defences around the problem and allow yourself to explore.


One of the things we loved about fables is that they’re so accessible. They take a complex message and, relatively indirectly, convey it to the reader.


Why did you choose the story to be about a Barista and a Young Manager, and the journey he goes on?

We wanted something that could connect with everyday life. We don’t give the Young Manager a name so anyone can identify with him. There are some hidden messages in the story as well. For instance, the group of companies in the converted power station where the story is set is called ‘The Collective’. We’ve always believed in the power of people coming together to create change. And, in a busy working life you just get a few moments in your day to reflect. This might happen when you’re queuing for a coffee. A barista might help you disconnect from your distractions and reconnect with yourself for a moment.  We wanted it to feel modern, relevant and familiar.

Mark: The Barista represents those little moments in the day where people actually do take to disconnect a little bit from the fast paced world around them. We’re constantly surrounded by technology, emails, phone calls and so on. But people do usually prioritise their coffee, and that gives them a little window for a human connection.
Pete: This is important. When we get stuck we often feel like we need some big, miraculous solution to our problem, while what we actually need is some common sense, everyday wisdom. Perhaps someone behind a coffee counter could give this to us.

Which aspect of your method do people struggle the most with?

The gold nugget metaphor. It’s about finding exceptions to problems you feel are always there. We are so quick to generalise, in our language and due to our biases and the limitations of our minds. It’s when you assume the problem occurs all the time, in every context, no matter what you’ve done, even though this isn’t true. This is what holds you stuck. You need to get curious about the times the problem does not occur, what the circumstances are when it does happens, and see the problem as a special and unique occurrence. This is a fundamentally different way of viewing the world.

Mark: I agree this is what people struggling with the most, because you’re asking them ‘when is this problem not a problem?’  We tend to use emotive language and general statements like ‘always’ and ‘never’, and people struggle to accept that it might not be a problem literally all the time. So for instance, when someone says to you that their colleague is never on message during meetings, this can’t be completely true; there must be moments when they are. People are so fixed on looking for the problem after they’ve defined it, finding it just reinforces the idea it’s there all the time.

Pete: This can be a pride issue as well. For example, if you feel like you argue with your partner constantly, and you feel like you’ve tried everything to solve this with no results, you might be stubbornly holding on to this idea that it’s a constant struggle rather than a circumstantial one. Ask yourself, do you argue in the middle of the night? Probably not, because you’ll be asleep. During the day you’re both likely to be at work so you can’t argue then. If you go through this process of elimination, as silly as it may seem, you may find the problem only with a very specific recipe, for instance after work in the kitchen when you’re cooking together.

Mark: And that changes the frame of the issue from it being a ‘relationship problem’, which is huge, to a ‘we argue in the kitchen after work problem’, which is a lot easier to solve.

Which fables have helped you and shaped your thinking?

Pete: We absolutely loved Who Moved My Cheese?. Spencer Johnson nailed the power of simplicity. You could read that book and think it’s the most ridiculously simple story about mice in a maze, but if you really listen to what it has to say it changes into something profound about accepting change. It’s very short and we love that it conveys something so complex through something simple. It’s accessible and easily applicable. You don’t need someone to interpret it for you, or explain the metaphor.

Mark: It also captured the spirit of a time where we learned that change is inevitable. We won’t have periods of time anymore where everything is stable. The working world is now dynamic and constantly shifting and this book captured that. And we find it very interesting that we have clients who tell us that book changed their lives, even though it takes barely an hour to read, and the infinite different interpretations they have. It frees them up to see things differently. And it exemplifies one thing we love about fables, that throughout reading them, you always get the sense you’re not the only person with this problem. Other people have been in the pig pen, other people have been in the maze looking for cheese.

  • Pig Wrestling

  • ‘This enjoyable book could bring about profound change’ Professor Steve Peters author of The Chimp Paradox


    Pig Wrestling is a simple story with a powerful message. Read it in under an hour, and you’ll be ready to tackle any type of sticky situation in work or life.

    Meet a stressed Young Manager, whose teams are at each other’s throats. At his local coffee bar he shares his frustrations with his barista – who turns out to be more than he seems.

    It’s the start of a journey into Pig Wrestling – a process that can be used to resolve any seemingly impossible problem. By reframing the issue we can all create change, whenever and wherever we need it most.

    Developed out of the authors’ work in elite sports and business – including Manchester City, Olympic champion Jessica Ennis-Hill and the England Cricket team – this instantly memorable story will help you thrive in complex and messy times.

  • Buy the book

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