How can I help someone fall in love with reading? with Nadia Shireen and Jonathan Douglas
Can you read a cookbook cover-to-cover like a thriller? Does your reading level predict a longer life? Why is a punk chef’s memoir the ultimate weapon for reluctant readers? And how do we inspire children to read if we don’t have the time to read to them?
In this special episode of Ask Penguin, Rhianna sits down with children’s author and illustrator, Nadia Shireen, and Jonathan Douglas CBE, Chief Executive of the National Literacy Trust. Together, they discuss the National Year of Reading’s Go All In campaign and why reading for pleasure has the power to change lives and help tackle social inequality.
Plus, we answer your questions about the reluctant readers in your life, helping you find the perfect book to spark a lifelong love of reading.
Listen to the episode and subscribe to Ask Penguin wherever you get your podcasts.
Non-Penguin titles
Episode Transcript
Rhianna Dillon: Hello, and welcome back to Ask Penguin. I'm Rhianna Dillon. Ask Penguin is the podcast that's all about celebrating books, authors, and our collective love of reading. This is a particularly special episode for us because 2026 is the National Year of Reading. Now, you might have seen some of the "Go All In" campaign online already, and this episode, we're going to dive in and find out more about what this brilliant mission is all about from some of the people involved. Joining me in the studio is Jonathan Douglas, CBE, Chief Executive of the National Literacy Trust, and illustrator, author, and National Year of Reading ambassador, Nadia Shireen. Nadia has written and illustrated celebrated picture books including The Bumble Bear, Barbara Throws a Wobbler, and the Grimwood series. Her debut book, Good Little Wolf, won the UKLA Book Award, and she's been shortlisted for the Roald Dahl Funny Prize and the Waterstones Children's Book Prize. Nadia has also been the writer-illustrator in residence at BookTrust. Nadia, Jonathan, welcome to the podcast.
Jonathan Douglas: Great to be here.
Nadia Shireen: Thank you for having us.
Rhianna Dillon: Jonathan, can you explain what the National Literacy Trust does?
Jonathan Douglas: Yep. So we're—we're a charity that—we're—we're actually obsessed by the relationship between social inequality and literacy. So when you look across the nations of the world, the fault line in terms of equality in every society is the fault line around literacy. So those on the right side have got high levels of literacy, those on the wrong side have got low levels of literacy, and it's different in different countries. So, in many of the states in India, it's about gender. In, um, France, it's frequently about the former French colonial communities. In this country, it's around class—social background.
Rhianna Dillon: Right.
Jonathan Douglas: And so our job is really about how we can address social inequality through literacy.
Rhianna Dillon: So on this podcast, we've been talking a lot about the National Year of Reading.
Jonathan Douglas: That's good.
Rhianna Dillon: So, I promise. Every episode.
Jonathan Douglas: Great, great.
Rhianna Dillon: Um, but why has 2026 been designated the National Year of Reading?
Jonathan Douglas: Yeah. So, so, so we do a lot of research. And, last year, our research showed that the number of kids reading for pleasure had dropped to 32%.
Rhianna Dillon: From—from what?
Jonathan Douglas: And that is massive. From—from mid-50s just before the pandemic. So, you know, it's—it's a really—and it's mirrored in other research about adult reading as well. And, yeah, I—I say that we're about social equality, and the extraordinary thing is that reading for pleasure is a massive driver of social mobility. So, it's actually more important in terms of where you end up in terms of your education—so your final attainment—than your parents' education background. So, it breaks that pattern of intergenerational um poverty. So, you know, reading for pleasure is really, really important, dropping off. So we persuaded the government that actually this was not simply a crisis for those of us who love books, but actually a crisis for society.
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Jonathan Douglas: When you look across the country, the place with the lowest levels of literacy is um Stockton town center. The highest levels of literacy is North Oxford. Um, life expectancy for males born in those two communities is—is—is—is a gap of 24 years. So, you know, this is—this isn't just about wonderful cultural experiences. This is about equality in society. This is about people's ability to get jobs. This is about people's ability to—to make good healthcare decisions, all those kind of things. So we said, "Look, we need to address this." So, we persuaded Bridget Phillipson, who's the Secretary of State for Education, we persuaded several key members of the government that actually they needed to—to highlight this, and they—they agreed. And so they said, "Well look, we will work with you, the charity sector." So we brought together 50 charities, 50 charities—
Rhianna Dillon: Wow.
Jonathan Douglas: —who have got an interest in reading—
Rhianna Dillon: Uh-huh.
Jonathan Douglas: —to form a coalition. We've worked with all the libraries, all the schools in the country doing all sorts of extraordinary things, but it's a year to really recover the national reading culture.
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Jonathan Douglas: Because it's a wonderful thing, but also because we know it would be a platform for all sorts of incredible things in terms of the way society needs to function.
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm. Have you had—have we had a National Year of Reading before?
Jonathan Douglas: Yeah. So, so this is the embarrassing thing. So, a coupl—a coupl—not—not just because, yeah, not just because we've got another one. Um, but because I—I've—I've been involved in all three.
Rhianna Dillon: Oh!
Jonathan Douglas: In, yeah, all three. Um, and I—I—I was actually hauled into the Select Committee, the um Education Select Committee in the Houses of Parliament recently because I think I'm the only person alive who has actually worked on all three. So the first one was in 1998,
Rhianna Dillon: Okay.
Jonathan Douglas: and um, it was David Blunkett. Do you—remember David Blunkett, yeah?
Rhianna Dillon: Yes.
Jonathan Douglas: And actually, I saw him recently and he referred to that year of reading as being the high point of his professional career. It was an amazing—so it was like this kind of very positive moment after Blair got in when everything seemed possible and the world was changing. And, they decided that they wanted "education, education, education" to be kind of the key theme. So, the Year of Reading, the first Year of Reading in '98 was like a platform to make that happen, was to awaken the nation's consciousness to—to the power of education and the joys of reading. Then there was another one, um, which Ed Balls, who um, was a very decent Secretary of State for Education before he went onto Strictly.
Rhianna Dillon: Hm.
Jonathan Douglas: Um, um he—he—he had one in—he had a National Year of Reading in 2008, which was about how kids who were having problems with reading could really be brought on board with the kind of with with school standards and so forth. So, this is the third one. And this is very different in scope because this is—this isn't about education, this isn't about kids who are failing, this is about society, everybody—
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Jonathan Douglas: —recovering a love of reading. So, this time we're working with everybody from the Premier League to Meta, from Spotify to, you know, we—we are trying to get to those places where we know people who don't read will be and—and get them engaged in reading in those places.
Rhianna Dillon: So, Nadia, what made you say yes to becoming an ambassador for the National Year of Reading?
Nadia Shireen: Well, it was a no-brainer really. I mean, I've been lucky enough to work with the NLT a bit as a visiting author over the years, and turn up to all the nice events.
Jonathan Douglas: You've done so much.
Nadia Shireen: So I know, you know, so over that period of time, I get to hear, you know, Jonathan speak so eloquently, but I—you get to pick up bits of information about the situation we're in. And then you add to that, you know, the double whammy of austerity and the pandemic, no wonder we need an exceptional response. And I think I have traveled around, I've gone into schools, I've—I meet the kids who read my books, which is amazing, but you do also see the different kind of world they're living in. And it just boiled down to, well, how lucky to be given the opportunity to be part of a solution. I'm not suggesting it's the solution, but if you're going to be on either side of the fence, I always want to be on that side. So, yeah, it was a very easy decision.
Rhianna Dillon: So what else does being an ambassador entail? So, going into schools, but what kind of events have you worked on?
Nadia Shireen: Clacking on a lot. No, but just—just getting out there and talking about it to anyone who will listen, I think, which I'm always happy to do because it's easy if you believe in it. And yeah, going into schools, meeting kids. In them, you can't sort of sit down with—with kids and go, "Well, it's been a tough few years, kids." That's not really going to work. But—but—but I like to go in and enthuse, hopefully, about books and drawing and all that kind of stuff, and just get them excited. When I go into schools, I actually don't read, which sounds a bit counterintuitive. I— I stand up, and we just chat, and I tell them about my life, and I show them my cats, and we do some drawing. And I tell them about the characters in my books.
Rhianna Dillon: Right.
Nadia Shireen: And I maybe outline what might happen, and I get them to shout out things. And then when—when they leave, they're a bit fired up.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah.
Nadia Shireen: And often, that's when they'll go, "Let's read it now!" you know, if their class gets a book. And then they get into it. So, that's part of what I do. So, I'm just doing that kind of writ large as an ambassador, I think. Um, yeah, no, it's great fun.
Rhianna Dillon: And Jonathan, what does it mean to "go all in," which I know is sort of like the—the sort of tagline for this?
Jonathan Douglas: Yeah. So—so—so our big challenge was, so—so, you know, the Year of Reading is happening in many spaces. It's happening in schools, as Nadia is saying, it's happening in communities, it's happening in libraries, it's happening on socials. And we wanted to—to have a really compelling marketing message at the heart of it. So we looked at things like, you know, social marketing in the health space, and social marketing in—in financial services, how you get people to—to take more vitamins or how you take get people to save more money for their pensions. And, and learned from actually what works in terms of behavior change in those places. And, one of the key things was, you need a really strong compelling sales pitch for—for what you're trying to do.
Rhianna Dillon: Right.
Jonathan Douglas: And trying to get people to read if they don't want to, you know, just screaming at people, "READ!" you know, is it perhaps not going to work. So we, like, "Well, why—why—why do people read?" And the majority of people read for content as much as, in fact, more likely for content than the act of reading itself. So, you know, you will read because the, you know, you're excited to read the work of a new author, or you read because somebody has suggested something, or you read because you're passionate about finding more out—more out about The Beatles or about The Clash, or whatever it is.
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Jonathan Douglas: So the idea actually of reading for content, reading for—so—so the proposition for the Year of Reading is, go all in to the things you love.
Rhianna Dillon: Right.
Jonathan Douglas: Whether—whether it is music, or whether it is football, or whether it is actually your well-being, or being a better mom, or whatever it is, that really is absolutely—go all into that thing, that is your ambition, and your heartbeat, by reading. So, we're not trying to, you know, we're trying to sell reading as a way into fulfilling your potential. Um, so "go all in" is the message for the year.
Rhianna Dillon: I love that. And what do you kind of—what do you both think is the future of storytelling? Because you're saying you don't necessarily need to read your books out in class. We all know the impact that smartphones are having on not just younger generations, but all of us.
Nadia Shireen: Yeah.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah. So, yeah, what do you believe is the future of storytelling?
Nadia Shireen: I think storytelling has always been multifaceted. I mean, it's always, you know, oral storytelling is kind of our foundation, isn't it, as human beings? And I think it's really important to just let all of those different ways of storytelling exist. One doesn't have to threaten the other.
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Nadia Shireen: So I listen to audiobooks, I use an e-reader,
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah. Yes.
Nadia Shireen: I make picture books and I read picture books, you know? So I enjoy splashing around in all those different pools of storytelling and—and they don't have to take away. I'm all about, you know, I—I believe in abundance, and abundance of storytelling is great. And so we can just encourage that. Maybe some people might have an—an idea in their head that they're not allowed to, or that listening to an audiobook isn't proper reading.
Rhianna Dillon: I'm so glad you mentioned that because it comes up time and again, more with people.
Nadia Shireen: Yeah, I don't know where we got that from, but we got it from somewhere, haven't we? Yeah. Yes.
Jonathan Douglas: I mean, there's—there's—I mean, the—the danger is there's all sorts of implicit hierarchies in culture.
Rhianna Dillon: Right.
Jonathan Douglas: And particularly in the act of reading. And, so, one kind of reading's, you know, perceived by some people as being better than the other.
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Jonathan Douglas: And, the big message of the Year of Reading is that all reading is reading.
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Jonathan Douglas: That actually, and that's so liberating because as soon as you identify yourself as a reader, you know, then we—the work of my—my charity is predominantly in—in communities with really low levels of literacy, you know, somewhere like North Ormesby in Middlesbrough, 40% of the adult population is functionally illiterate. And also, really high levels of poverty. And the big challenge in many of those places is people just don't associate themselves with reading, either because of their skills, because it's just not the kind of thing which people like us do. And turning that on its head is the most powerful way. And I think the two—the two techniques for that: first of all, is by saying, you know, actually, if you are reading the newspaper, if you are, you know, reading articles online, if you are, you know, if you are, poetry is incredibly popular in a lot of these communities. We used to think that poetry is a very highfalutin form of literature. It's incredibly dem—So, the first thing is, you know, saying, "Yeah, all reading is reading. You are a reader." The second thing is actually going back to the book that your initial question, the point that Nadia made, basing everything on stories. I mean, one of the—the places I'm really passionate about is Bradford. We do a lot of work in Bradford. And, last year was the Bradford 2025 City of Culture. And we did big projects. And all our work in Bradford was around the concept of stories. So, Bradford, the biggest asset Bradford has, is the place. Reason I get quite tingly when I think of Bradford is because of the diversity of it. The fact that there are so many voices, there's so much richness in terms of cultural diversity in—in Bradford. And actually celebrating that in a variety of ways. So, last year we—we—we had like a map of Bradford, and everybody was able to plant their story, their family story on this map, and you began to see this—we had a cloud of stories hovering over Bradford, Bradford stories last year.
Rhianna Dillon: Oh, that's beautiful. Awesome.
Jonathan Douglas: And then we brought them all together. We actually worked in the end on—on a massive performance poem, which Queen Camilla came to—to—to listen to. And we got hundreds of kids chanting this poem, which was made up of different voices, different languages, different stories. But it became one thing. And I think, I think the truth is, when you look at things which scare us in society today, what scare me, um, some elements of the kind of political narrative, AI, things like that, actually, stories are the most powerful thing we've got in navigating those challenges, whether it's the growth of empathy, whether it's more critical understanding, you know, stories at the heart of it. And I—so—so for me, the key—the two key components of the Year of Reading in terms of is, welcoming people in, giving them that sense that they are readers, but also admitting the power of story.
Rhianna Dillon: I love that. So beautiful. Um. He's good, isn't he?
Nadia Shireen: He's really—
Rhianna Dillon: He's really good. You're very good at your job, Jonathan.
Jonathan Douglas: My—my—my third year of— This is not my first rodeo. Okay? Not my first rodeo.
Rhianna Dillon: Ask Penguin is a podcast that is all about books and recommendations, about people kind of discovering their new favorite reads. And, you know, obviously, we have a lot of book lovers and readers who listen. But how can they help other people who are in their lives that perhaps less engaged with reading, or don't think themselves readers?
Nadia Shireen: I think—I think for— It's a tricky one because you never want to be a finger-wagging person—
Rhianna Dillon: Yes.
Nadia Shireen: —saying, "Take your medicine! You should read!" and like throw a copy of Tolstoy at someone's face. Like, that's not going to work.
Rhianna Dillon: Sure.
Nadia Shireen: But I think, you know,
Rhianna Dillon: Although, that is the reason I read Anna Karenina. So maybe it does—
Nadia Shireen: Is it? Someone literally threw it at your head? [makes throwing sound]
Jonathan Douglas: That's that.
Nadia Shireen: Making an effort is not bad—not a bad thing. Um, but I think, I do think leaning into the "go all in" kind of message can help, can really help with that. It's about enthusiasm.
Rhianna Dillon: Right.
Nadia Shireen: You know, I have this with members of my family who maybe aren't that keen on reading. And if I go, "Sit down, read a book," they're not going to listen. But if I go, "Have you read this biography of this Arsenal player?"
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Nadia Shireen: They'll go, "Woohoo!" So, um, that's kind of always a neat way in. And also, it doesn't have to be a—a book, a standard book. It doesn't have to be a novel.
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Nadia Shireen: It could be a cookbook. It could be a magazine, remember them? I mean, I used to—I used to, in my previous life, I used to work in the magazine industry. And it's obviously not much—it's nothing like it was decades ago.
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Nadia Shireen: But I really believe that they were powerful things to have lying around. That ephemera that you could just pick up a newspaper—again, we don't have many of them anymore lying around—and just read a bit and chuck it down again. So, scraps, bits and bobs, that can always be a way in, whether it's, I don't know, a catalog,
Jonathan Douglas: Definitely.
Nadia Shireen: a cookbook, like a—a football program.
Jonathan Douglas: Definitely.
Nadia Shireen: There are some magazines still around.
Jonathan Douglas: Yeah. Yeah.
Nadia Shireen: You know, that can be a way in.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah.
Jonathan Douglas: And I—and I—and I think—I think I—there's—there's a—there's a lot of hunger in parts of the country to make a commitment and a contribution to your community. You know, I think belonging is increasingly important for a lot of us, isn't it? And one of the things which we've been trying to do this year during the Year of Reading is generate more reading volunteers. So actually, linking social action to reading. Skills, you know, volunteering is so important. You know, I'm—I'm—I—in all sorts of ways, I—it's very—very important to me personally. But skills-based volunteering—the idea that not—you're not just kind of painting a wall or, you know, but actually you're using your skills—is—is just the most powerful way of volunteering. And of course, the truth is, the highest preponderance, we talk about literacy levels, one in six adults not having high levels of literacy, all that kind of stuff, but actually, the inverse of that is that actually reading literacy skills are—are the highest density of skills within the population. Using those skill-based— So this year, we've—the aim is to generate 100,000 volunteers. We've got 40—as of this morning, we've got 41,000—I checked on the way out of the office—41,000 volunteers who are—who are—and they're being triaged into community charities across the country. But we're also asking people, if you don't want to work in a charity, then actually, what about, you know, a pop-up library at the end of—the end of your front path, or what about bringing your friends together in your local pub and having a book group? What about—what social action can you take? Because the key, again, important message for the Year of Reading is, reading is not an isolating activity.
Rhianna Dillon: I was going to say, because it's—I think people associate it with being quite solitary and a lone time.
Jonathan Douglas: Yes. Yes.
Rhianna Dillon: And of course, it is that, but actually, the best conversations that I have are about books.
Nadia Shireen: Right. Right.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah.
Nadia Shireen: And also like—looking at that from another angle, sometimes getting into a certain genre of book or a certain author, you build a community.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah.
Nadia Shireen: And then you get sucked into, you know, long Reddit threads about certain books. I've found myself, when I finished a book, going, "What did that person think? Oh, I hate the ending! Oh!" and, you know, so, community comes into this in kind of in all ways.
Rhianna Dillon: Oh, I think we— you know, I think there is a tendency to be a little bit dismissive about social media and, uh, just online forums, etc. when it comes to distractions. But actually, as you say, it brings people together like no other— like some of the— I've had my mind changed by comments on social media about certain books, or just seeing another person's perspective. It just kind of broadens everything out for a change.
Nadia Shireen: I mean, social media, like, it's obviously there's so much about it that's bad, but there is some good stuff.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah.
Nadia Shireen: And so we can't shy away from that.
Jonathan Douglas: It is—it is fascinating because so many reading cultures exist almost underground. We did—we did a lot of research in the—in the pandemic around what kids were doing, and, you know, when they—when they weren't in school. And, there was a huge amount of hidden reading and writing activity going. And we dived deeply into the kind of fan fiction space around—about—around video games. Massively important.
Rhianna Dillon: Oh! Okay.
Jonathan Douglas: So an awful lot of, you know, teenagers who appear not to be reading are reading and writing in the fan fiction space around video games in particular. Very, very interesting. And I think I—and the—the challenge is always that kind of subversive literature, subversive literacy activity, prospers because it isn't part of the mainstream.
Rhianna Dillon: Yes.
Jonathan Douglas: So we want—you know, I don't want to drag these wonderful, you know, areas of activity into the curriculum. But I do think having an awareness that actually, the experience of literature, the experience of reading and writing in society is broader than that which we encounter in Waterstones, is very, very important.
Rhianna Dillon: Nadia, what do you think that children really gain from discovering the stories that they love? Because I still, I think, what I—I still remember all of the books that I read as a child so much more than the books that I read as an adult.
Nadia Shireen: Potent, right? Cuz your brain, like, I think your brain just takes so much more in. I think a lot— I mean, there's—it's a—it's a big question and there are lots of different answers, but one thing I really like is the sense of autonomy—
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Nadia Shireen: —that children get when they're holding a picture book, even if they cannot yet read. And they're holding a picture book, and they look at the pictures, and they've got control over which way they hold the page, which direction they turn the pages in, what they choose to look at, how long they choose to spend on a particular page. That's quite powerful at a time in their life when not much is in their control. So, I love seeing that. And I think that's quite an important thing. And in picture books specifically, there's a funny thing where I draw pictures and I write the words, hopefully, there's some space between those two elements. That space is there for the reader to hop in with their perspective. And between those three elements, you get something kind of magic. And I think maybe that's why, uh, the picture books we looked at when we were young, resonate so much because we're kind of growing bits of our imagination. Um, so I love that. And that, I think that carries through as you get older and you read, you, you know, you read different kinds of formats of books, that sense of ownership, again, a sense of community, um, the best children's books don't speak down to children. You're hopefully, I always aspire to be kind of eyeball to eyeball with the children I write for. So, I think maybe that's got something to do with kind of how large they loom in our memories.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah. There's a character in—in Barbara Throws a Wobbler called Otto.
Nadia Shireen: Yeah.
Rhianna Dillon: And I— as soon as when I read it, it just took me straight back to a picture book that I read as a child about a— one of the characters, everybody was spelling— writing their names in the sand, and they were all coming out differently, and Otto's name was a palindrome, so it was just Otto, Otto. And then they were— then they— then they, and he felt really left out and then he rejigged them, and then it became "toot," which is also a palindrome.
Nadia Shireen: [laughter]
Rhianna Dillon: But it was just— you just— just having Otto in your book just unlocked another memory from like, yeah, 35 years ago.
Nadia Shireen: He's based on my dachshund nephew, Otto. Otto is Otto. Yeah.
Rhianna Dillon: Your books are very, very funny, and I, again, work on multiple levels, and you have so much empathy in them as well. But for both of you, how important is humor when you're writing for children?
Nadia Shireen: Of— I mean, for me, it's key. Um, it's sort of what I naturally veer towards. But I honestly think children have a really sophisticated sense of humor. So with my books, I try and make myself laugh because I just think if you just take away swearing and rude bits, we have the same sense of humor. Kids are really smart and really funny, and I think the—the most unfunny thing is kind of a children's book that's really trying to be funny but you can tell there's a barrier there. And—and I try not to do that. I try and kind of really, yeah, as I say, I just write as I would write to make myself laugh. And—and they seem to like it. I can't analyze it any more than that because I think once you start picking it apart, I don't understand how it works, really. Um, but yeah, for me, I've always loved reading funny books.
Jonathan Douglas: It's so—it's so—it's so true. So, the first 10 years of my working life was spent as a librarian, as a kids' librarian.
Rhianna Dillon: That's so fun.
Jonathan Douglas: It was the best job. I mean, and I still, you know—
Rhianna Dillon: I'm so jealous.
Jonathan Douglas: I just—yes. Yes, yes. Um, but—but—but I, you know, every day I would do a school assembly, first thing in the morning, then I'd see kind of class after class of kids, just selling books to them, selling the idea of, you know, frequently going into the schools or wherever they were, rather than actually getting them— getting them to the library if I could have, obviously. But it was humor, absolutely, it was the Paul Jennings story, you know, short stories with great punchlines, or it was—it was—it was that was the way to—to bring them in.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah.
Jonathan Douglas: Um, and I loved it. I loved it, yeah.
Rhianna Dillon: Were there any books, in particular, that you remember working for the children that you were spending time with in the library? Were there any standout titles?
Jonathan Douglas: Yeah, I mean, this was a long time ago. Now this—you know, going back to that first Year of Reading, that was before the first Year of Reading. We're all about recommendations on this. They don't—they don't expire. Assuming they're still in print, assuming they're still in print. It was a very interesting time in children's fiction, actually, because there were extraordinary issue-based books being created. It was when kind of teenage fiction was really, you know, was—it was—it was before YA, it was called teenage fiction in those days. But, um, people like Melvin Burgess were writing about drug issues, Junk and things like that, extraordinary things.
Rhianna Dillon: Oh, did he write Lady: My Life as a Bitch? Was that Melvin Burgess?
Jonathan Douglas: Oh! OMG! Yeah, that was—that—
Rhianna Dillon: That has stayed with me.
Jonathan Douglas: —that is— That, in terms of gender issues, it's kind of challenging, isn't it? Yes.
Rhianna Dillon: But it stayed with me.
Jonathan Douglas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's an incredible writer, absolutely amazing writer. And there was also kind of books by Steve Jackson, the kind of interactive, amazing, um, lime green Puffin spines of interactive, and it was— this again this was a very, very before the, you know, ahead of its time, basically, it was—there were books which kids would start and then they would have a choice on each page.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah, choose your own adventure.
Jonathan Douglas: Choose your own adventure, which, you know, non-linear narrative, it's like, you know, this was—this was—like— This is really— But the—but the—but the—but the veins of—of around humor in books were really, really strong at that stage as well, and I do remember, I remember actually, when—when I was a librarian, getting a bit of money, um, and we— "Who can I afford? I could get" to get an author in, "who could I afford to get in?" And there was a new author who hadn't been— who'd just got his first book out called Anthony Horowitz. And, um, and I could afford Anthony. And I could afford— Oh, really, have you done Anthony? Okay. I could afford— I could afford Anthony Horowitz. It was that long— If that was—it was a long time ago. But he—he'd—his first books, um, there was a book called Granny, Groosham Grange, kids' books which were utterly hilarious. And his—his early books, his humor in his early books from those years, this is a— Anthony has worn very well. He can afford very good moisturizer these days. But, um, yeah, those early books were very, very funny and worked very, very well.
Rhianna Dillon: Nadia, your illustrations as well bring everybody so much joy, including me. Um, but how do you think that the illustrations and— because you do drawalongs as well.
Nadia Shireen: Yeah, I do, they're fun.
Rhianna Dillon: How— how does that help to engage not just children who, like, can't read, but also perhaps, I think, you know, thinking about children with dyslexia, or, you know, children who struggle.
Nadia Shireen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a great way in. Visual literacy, I, you know, I can harp on about visual literacy a lot, but it's um, it's—it's a really valid form of storytelling. We can see it now in there—there's been a bit of resurgence in sequential image like comics.
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Nadia Shireen: That kind of thing. I think a lot of kids are finding their way in that way, which is really exciting to see. I mean, I can't draw comics, too much drawing involved. But, nevertheless, I'm a big fan of seeing it happen because I think exactly as you say, for some kids, we're in a place where reading a kind of linear, you know, narrative is challenging or intimidating, and, um, comics can be a way in. That said, there'll be lots of comic creators very angry at me for saying, "Comics can be a way in," because that suggests that comics themselves are not enough, and that they're kind of— they're not just a stepping stone to proper books. It—it goes back into that kind of hierarchy of literacy we were talking about.
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Nadia Shireen: Um, but drawalongs, I mean, they're a confidence booster because I always go, "Everyone can draw," and you'll get a couple of kids who are like, "No, I can't." And then you just draw some shapes, like here's a square, here's a circle, do another circle.
Rhianna Dillon: It's literally Mr. Men.
Nadia Shireen: There we go. And it's really empowering. Again, it comes back to that sense of ownership and empowerment, and, um, they just get really excited that they can do it. It's achievable. I also tell them that every picture they see in one of my picture books or another book or another picture book, it's not the first time I've drawn that picture. I've had loads of goes, and I've scrunched up loads of paper, and it's version 58 they're looking at. Just little things like that can kind of demystify words and pictures for kids who maybe aren't naturally at home with those things. So, that's really useful as well.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah, that's really cool. Um, who else, Jonathan, are you sort of working with apart from authors to— to really try and engage people with the National Year of Reading?
Jonathan Douglas: Well, so—so yeah, so the kind of that "go all in" methodology means we need to work with the people who are already work— working with the audiences we want to reach.
Rhianna Dillon: Right. Okay.
Jonathan Douglas: So, you know, as I say, partnerships with socials, incredibly important. We're bringing on loads of influen—influencers, not just the kind of BookTok influencers but also more general influencers. We're about— we're launching this week a campaign called "A Summer of Sport and Reading." Fantastically, we've got a kind of "Go All In" team captains. The idea being that actually, at this point, we're not just working with amazing authors. We're working with people— people from the world of sport. So, Joe Wicks is the first one over the starting line. But Claire Balding, Levi Roots, Georgia Stanway, absolutely fantastic names. So, you know, the—the point is, we don't want to just talk to ourselves about how wonderful reading is.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah. That echo chamber.
Jonathan Douglas: It is about getting— exactly. So, you know, we're talking to British Land. British Land hosts— they—they're doing amazing things. They're the biggest commercial landlord in the country. They've got on board with the campaign. They've been doing pop-up things in shopping centers around the country, which is great. But they also have all the big screens in the city center.
Rhianna Dillon: Oh, yeah.
Jonathan Douglas: As part of the kind of the broadcasting of the big sporting events this summer, there'll be weaving in "Go All In" messaging adverts and reading opportunities. We are building out from the world of books into different communities whether they're social spaces, whether they're broadcast spaces, whether they're interest spaces, through— through champions and ambassadors. But it all comes back to Nadia, really.
Nadia Shireen: Yay! [laughter]
Rhianna Dillon: We are all about reading recommendations on this podcast. Um, as part of the National Year of Reading's aim to ignite people's passion for reading, we want to ask you, which book sparked your love of reading? This is very interesting.
Nadia Shireen: Well, there are so many. In terms of picture books, where— which is one of my wheelhouses, um, Yehudi Menuhin's Meg and Mog books. I remember seeing them in the library and loving it cuz you could see his like felt tip marks where he was coloring in. And I was like, "Oh my goodness, I could do that! I could draw a cat!" So, that was very important. And then, I grew up in a strange house. I grew up in a house of readers.
Rhianna Dillon: Mhm.
Nadia Shireen: So my parents and my my older brother all read a lot. But I didn't grow up in a house with necessarily many children's books specifically. So, you know, my dad mainly read in Urdu. So—so there— and then English books, my mom was like Agatha Christie, Dick Francis. Wasn't bothered about either of them. P. G. Wodehouse, though. So, I picked up P. G. Wodehouse from a very young age, which may explain a lot.
Rhianna Dillon: That's fascinating.
Nadia Shireen: Yeah. I was really young. And I read them and I thought they were hilarious. I mean, it's strange, isn't it, thinking of like an eight-year-old Pakistani child in the Midlands, like really vibing with Jeeves and Wooster. But I did.
Rhianna Dillon: That's incredible.
Nadia Shireen: So, where we are, the joy of reading, the joy of reading.
Rhianna Dillon: You never know where it's going to take you.
Nadia Shireen: So those books, cuz—cuz also he was quite a rebel, I think, writing-wise, and a rulebreaker. Even the way that he calls eggs and bacon, "eggs and b." After you've read eggs and bacon once, he'll just say, "And then Jeeves brought over my e. and b." and I'm like, "Ooh, this is thrilling. I didn't know you were allowed to do that."
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah.
Nadia Shireen: So yeah, I guess those books were quite important.
Rhianna Dillon: Again, Martin Jarvis did the audio as well, and for that and Just William, and that's how I fell in love with those sorts of stories, was because of the narration.
Nadia Shireen: Yes.
Rhianna Dillon: Didn't necessarily pick the— up the books, but just—
Nadia Shireen: What did Alan Bennett do? Was Alan Bennett The Wind in the Willows?
Jonathan Douglas: It was.
Nadia Shireen: That was—that— That was beautiful.
Jonathan Douglas: That was beautiful.
Nadia Shireen: One of my favor—one of my, yeah, favorite audiobook experiences, which you didn't ask, but I'm just dropping in.
Rhianna Dillon: No, no, no, I mean, give me your favorite audiobook as well, yes. What about you, Jonathan?
Jonathan Douglas: So, I—it—it's interesting, isn't it? Because as soon as you get asked that question, you suddenly go back to your childhood home, don't you? So, my parents um both left school by the term they were 15 and I grew up in— in Birmingham. And, um, we—we were taken to the library lots. Books were kind of important, but we didn't have many at home. And, I had a picture book, and my mom died a couple of years ago, and we found in her— in her things, my picture book, was called My Name is Peter. I Am a Bunny. I Live in a Hollow. I can—I've—I memor—I memorized the whole thing. And by the time I was five, four and a half, five, when I started school, I thought I could read because I'd memorized that book. And it's terrible. It's one of the worst books you can possibly— It's—absolutely nothing apart from the fact he goes to sleep and wakes up again. Um, he chases—he chases butterflies occasionally, you know? He did—he did gripping. But so—so—so— But that made me happy. That made me happy. But the—the first book I absolute— I, yeah, Birmingham in the '80s wasn't the most beautiful of places. But I remember when I was at primary school picking up a book called A Traveler in Time by Alison Uttley. I don't know if you've read it? No. And it's about a— a girl who gets who's sickly, lives in the London, gets sent to stay with an aunt in Derbyshire. And there's two things about the book which were great. The first was the descriptions of the countryside. And I think it was the first time I'd actually read descriptions of the countryside. I was like, "Oh, this is beautiful." Um, but the second thing was, this child slips back in time to the time of Mary, Queen of Scots, and gets involved in the Babington Plot to free Mary, Queen of Scots.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah.
Jonathan Douglas: And she she— you've—you've—you've— have you come across the book? No. No, I haven't, but Babington, you've heard of it, yes. So, she she falls in love with Anthony Babington. There's all sorts of things go— it's just amazing. And there's all sorts of tensions. But you know history. You know, and she knows history and she knows that the plot's going to be foiled and Mary, Queen of Scots—
Rhianna Dillon: They don't have a happy ending, the Babingtons.
Jonathan Douglas: They don't, absolutely. But then at the end, there's a question mark about whether history is inevitable, which is very cleverly done with this kind of, again, this—this idea that—that stories and and time may not be linear in the way in which we suppose them to be. And I read that book when I was like seven or eight, and I was like, "Oh my god, this is incredible!" You were seven or eight, but you read that— I mean, I—I've made it sound a lot more elevated than it is. It's—it was—it's—it's amazing. We were smoking a pipe. [laughter] Absolutely. A little whisky at my side as well. Yes. No, it was—it was an amazing book, so that book— And I have— there are passages of that book I kind of know by heart now.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah. I mean, historical fiction, I just— because I had that maybe with Terry Deary, and he had to kind of fit in a lot of fiction. It was Shakespeare. And, yeah, fitting in a whole fictional family and story alongside this, you know, that's how I learned about Marlowe and his death. Yeah, but that was a way in that's not, you know, it's not a dry kind of historical way of learning about it, but the facts are all there, and—
Jonathan Douglas: It's a bit Doctor Who-ish, you know, that kind of going back to time. It was very, very interesting, very interesting.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah. Oh, sorry. This is such a fun conversation. Um, and where is your favorite place to read? Do you have like a, you know, or will you just pick up a book anywhere and everywhere?
Nadia Shireen: I mean, so, this is so boring. I mean, it's bedtime, obviously, for me, that's just been a lovely, lifelong habit. Now, you know, life is quite busy and chaotic, and I don't commute, I work from home. Every time now, I get to do a little train journey, I'm like, "Yes! Book time." And my e-reader has really come into its own over the last few years, I have to say. Um, I love that little guy. So, it's with me always.
Rhianna Dillon: I've only just discovered Kindle Unlimited.
Nadia Shireen: Oh, yeah, it's great, right?
Rhianna Dillon: It's so brilliant.
Nadia Shireen: Not enough time. No. Not enough hours in the day to get everything read.
Rhianna Dillon: Exactly.
Jonathan Douglas: But my—my I—I, like you, I dart in and out, and I think—I think the flexibility of different formats is extraordinary, and kind of, you know, in terms of modern living, it, you know, whether it's audio, whether it's digital, just wonderful. But nothing beats a Saturday afternoon at 3:00 in the bath.
Rhianna Dillon: Oh. Do you know, yeah, I used to love bath reading. I've stopped.
Jonathan Douglas: Oh, have you?
Rhianna Dillon: Well, because— maybe because I'm reading things on the Kindle.
Jonathan Douglas: It's—well, I, yes, I—
Rhianna Dillon: And I don't want to—
Jonathan Douglas: I had a near-death experience preparing for Hay-on-Wye once with a Kindle in the bath. So, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
Rhianna Dillon: Why, was it plugged to the mains? [laughter]
Jonathan Douglas: No, no, no, no, no. I— well, yeah. But yeah, yeah, baths, baths. Baths.
Nadia Shireen: And then you get slightly wavy pages.
Rhianna Dillon: Yes.
Nadia Shireen: The really good ones.
Jonathan Douglas: Exactly, absolutely.
Rhianna Dillon: But, yeah. Yes, yes, and also that jeopardy of making sure that you don't drop it into the water.
Jonathan Douglas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nadia Shireen: And keeping a dry hand. Always a dry hand. I don't know about you, I always have to dry it on my hair.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah! Yes, hair.
Nadia Shireen: That's exactly it.
Rhianna Dillon: What do our hairless brothers out there do?
Nadia Shireen: I don't know. Wave it, furiously. Keep a towel nearby.
Rhianna Dillon: We're all going to put our heads together to try and solve some listener reading requests.
Nadia Shireen: Okay. Okay. Okay.
Rhianna Dillon: Um.
Nadia Shireen: I've made notes.
Rhianna Dillon: Okay. [laughter] Get the paper out.
Nadia Shireen: Yep. Yep. Yep.
Rhianna Dillon: From a listener: "My partner has never read a book apart from at school. I'm an avid reader and cannot get him into anything. He's an actuary who's into PS5 and F1."
Nadia Shireen: Yeah. Can't lie, challenging. Yeah, that is a challenge. Um, F1, not my wheelhouse. However, luckily, it's lots of other people's wheelhouse. So I had a quick nosy. Yes. These are my tips. There's a book called The Formula by Joshua Robinson and Jonathan Clegg. It's come out quite recently, and it's all about modern-day F1. It kind of looks at the history of F1 but now looks into kind of— You know, you know, I think—I think people win these races on like tiny margins of like the weight of the metal they use to—to pop the wheels in. What—not a technical term. So, it's an amazing book which is hyperfocused on modern F1. And, if you want some more human story, Niki Lauda, the legend, his biography is meant to be amazing. So, there's an autobiography, but I think it's the biography that people say is amazing. So, that's my tip.
Rhianna Dillon: Those are your ways in.
Nadia Shireen: Yeah, but I can't— I've not read either, so they might be awful. [laughter]
Rhianna Dillon: Jonathan, did you have any for this one?
Jonathan Douglas: No.
Rhianna Dillon: No. Okay, great. Um. Another reader has said, "I have a friend who doesn't enjoy reading much. He loves playing guitar, eating great food, drawing, flowers, and birds."
Nadia Shireen: Yes. So, that— I mean, that was a puzzle. I think carry on drawing, that's fine.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah.
Nadia Shireen: Um, in terms— but it was the food thing that made me think of Anthony Bourdain.
Rhianna Dillon: Oh, yeah.
Nadia Shireen: And I thought about Kitchen Confidential. Cuz I remember reading that when it came out so I was quite young. It was before I was going to any posh restaurants, that's for sure. But it was so energetic and kind of punk-y. I loved it. And I was— I've been told recently, uh, that apparently there's an—an updated, slightly annotated version that he did before he— before he died. Oh, that's exciting. So, I'd like to read that. Um, but that— that's a top book that everyone should read. That's a great shout. I mean, just as a personality, so brilliant. Right. Just so vivid. Um, oh, and the—the guitar thing, well, I wasn't sure what kind of guitar music, but there's a great music writer called Kate Mossman. She used to write for a magazine called The Word, which is sadly over. But she's written a book called Men of a Certain Age: Encounters with Rock Royalty. So, it's her meeting like Bruce Springsteen, Paul McCartney, like all the big— all the biggies, and she's just a great, funny writer, really engaging, and she's looking into what makes those sorts of— that era of pop star, rock star tick. So, that might fit the bill?
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah, that's a great one.
Jonathan Douglas: And on—on—on the food side, on the, speaking personally, my— I met my partner 17 years ago and, you know, hit it off pretty immediately, as you should. But then he said, "Look, I'm terribly sorry. This might be awkward in our relationship. I've never read a book since I left school." He said, "I was so dyslexic when I was at school that I had scribes for my Highers, in Scotland, and, I— the thought of reading a book terrifies me." Anyway, so I said, "Okay." But he's an incredible cook. So, I said, "Well, why don't you just read cookbooks like books? Rather than dipping into them, why don't you start at the beginning and work your way through them?" And he, for about three or four years, and he—he reads so much now, but he would just read cookbooks as novels. He would start at the beginning and work his way through them. And, really, and that actually for him, going back to the thing about identifying as a reader, he, you know, after a kind of few, he's like, "Yeah, I'm a reader, you know, this is—this is me." So, I think I think, you know, treating cookery writing as literature, not just Elizabeth David, but actually, you know, really, really important. I think the other— the other book I really want to talk about because I read it recently and I just think is May We Feed the King by Rebecca Perry, which has just been published. Extraordinary novel about the use of food in stately homes. So, you know, you go into, I don't know, a stately home, you go down to the kitchens, and there's a setup which is about food. This whole novel spills from this the— the fake food in a— in a— in a— in a Renaissance kitchen. And it is utterly brilliant. And it's also, I have to say, Rebecca is our Head of Criminal Justice at the National Literacy Trust. She works in— she is an amazing person and this is her first novel, and it is— it's a Granta novel, it's phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal.
Rhianna Dillon: Oh, wow. Oh, that sounds so fun. I do really love the idea about cookbooks as well because, Yes. like, chefs and people who write cookbooks put so much of themselves and their lives and their experiences into— It's not just recipes. I remember reading Nigel Slater books before I was anywhere near a kitchen. Loving how he writes. Yeah. Exactly. and kind of reading about roasting potatoes for about two years before I ever roasted one. And even like Lisa Faulkner's book, she kind of talks about like recipes from my mother to my daughter, and I remember being so moved to tears just reading some of the recipes and the little anecdotes she brings in. So, yeah, that's perfect. This is from Books with JJ: "My partner's 37 and a reluctant reader. She loves the beach and being outdoors. Any easy to get into book recommendations?" I mean, that's— there must be so many. There's so many, like where do you start? Like people like Vi Mcfarlane or like Marian Keyes, Emily Henry, Taylor Jenkins Reid, I mean, I adore, I adore those really like [makes chewing sound] chomp them down beach reads. I read them all the time. Also, like being really hyper-literal about this, has she read The Beach by Alex Garland? Come on, cuz that's— that's a banger of a book. It's so fast-paced. It's maybe not relaxing, like bad things happen on the beach. They do. Um, but if she wants a change of pace, she could go with the Emily Henrys and all the rest of us and just slip that in. Alex Garland is just an extraordinary writer and screenwriter, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. director. Oh, The Wedding People, I read that one recently, by Allison Espach. That's a great one.
Rhianna Dillon: What's that about?
Nadia Shireen: It's about a woman, and it sounds bleak, the setup. She goes to a hotel, a beachside hotel, to end her life because she's been left by her partner. And she's planning to do it. However, her— and she's like, "I'm going to have a final dinner and look out over the beach for my final dinner," but it gets completely upended by a wedding party [laughter] that also is in the hotel, and she's the only guest in the hotel who's not part of the wedding party, so she kind of gets entangled in the wedding party, and things change. Really entertaining.
Rhianna Dillon: That sounds good. Yeah, very good.
Jonathan Douglas: In the last couple of years, my holiday reads have been Joseph O'Connor's new trilogy about people escaping from Italy during fascist rule during the Second World War. I don't know if you've come across— My Father's House is the first one. Absolutely amazing novels set in the Vatican. There's a— there's a— an Irish priest who's basically helping Jewish refugees, Gypsy Roman traveler people, escape through the Vatican. But the wonderful thing is, and I love it when this happens, the books are kind of seem to be published just before I go on holiday. So— so— so I'm desperately hoping, you fulfill your vocation in giving me the third of these books for my holiday this year, but yeah. It's—it's nice when you get that kind of rhythm.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah. This is from Amy: "My niece is eight. She loves baking, drawing, and being outside climbing trees. We read together but I need ideas for something that she can try by herself. What would you recommend?"
Nadia Shireen: Climbing trees, you say. [laughter] Well, I know of some children's books that are heavily illustrated and involve lots of animals in trees, and they're called Grimwood by an author called Nadia Shireen. Um, and isn't it terrible that my kind of hunger for self-promotion is just so giant that it's crowded out any other possible recommendation?
Rhianna Dillon: I mean, you recommended a lot of other— I think it's fair enough.
Nadia Shireen: Right? I think I've done my bit. Joking aside, I do think Grimwood would be good. [laughter] I just think it would be great. Yeah. Do you know what though, does she like— if she likes drawing— she likes drawing, does she?
Rhianna Dillon: She likes drawing, yeah.
Nadia Shireen: So, I think actually going down the comics route could be really good. Happy Hills, Sophy Henn.
Jonathan Douglas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Nadia Shireen: Dadbot, that's a good one. Um, um, of course, Bunny vs Monkey. You know, there's like a whole load of stuff going on there. In that world. Not World.
Rhianna Dillon: Also, the Roald Dahl cookbook, the— what's that— what's the recipe—
Jonathan Douglas: She, what's—what's how does the Goldilocks end? She whips a pistol—
Nadia Shireen: She whips a pistol from her knickers.
Jonathan Douglas: —from her knickers, and bang, bang, bang, she shoots the wolf dead.
Rhianna Dillon: Yeah, something like that.
Nadia Shireen: It's really funny.
Jonathan Douglas: Wonderful. Absolutely. And then there's a— then she's— she's walking through the woods at the final scene and she's wearing a wolfskin coat.
Nadia Shireen: Yes. Love it.
Jonathan Douglas: Wonderful.
Rhianna Dillon: Is that not the Stephen Sondheim musical? It's— [laughter] Not quite Into the Woods, but very nearly. Very nearly. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, I was talking because of the baking thing, I was talking about Roald Dahl's Revolting Recipes because that as a cookbook is brilliant and ridiculous, but also just— I used to flip through it and just read it over and over again because it was so funny and gross, like lickable wallpaper, and—
Nadia Shireen: I don't think I read it.
Rhianna Dillon: —edible pillows and oh, it was great.
Nadia Shireen: I need to read it.
Rhianna Dillon: If it's still in print. Thank you both so much for joining me. That was really, really fun, and yeah, good luck with all of the campaign over the next year.
Jonathan Douglas: Thank you.
Rhianna Dillon: Thank you so much to Jonathan and Nadia for coming to tell us about the National Year of Reading, and for all those brilliant suggestions. I hope it's inspired all you readers, avid or casual, cautious or keen, to go all in in your own way. If you want more information on any of the books that we've mentioned today or the National Year of Reading events, you can find links to further information about them in the show notes. And, if you have a question for the Ask Penguin team, we have a new Insta handle for the podcast, so do follow @askpenguinpodcast and message us there. Thank you very much for listening, and we'll be back so, so soon. And in the meantime, happy reading. Bye!